Episode 24 - Veronica Mignon - Writing as an outlet in perimenopause

Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Menopause Chats. I'm your host, Erin Darusca. Today I am speaking with uh Veronica Mignon, who operates the Healing Pen and hosts the Grackle in Winston-Salem. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me.

Of course, of course. So uh tell me a little bit about where you are in your perimenopausal journey.

Interestingly enough, I am in the I don't know where I am in the menopausal, pre-perimenopausal journey, which is why I think what you're doing is so amazing, because I think that um there are so many challenges in women's health that women aren't able to name. And sometimes when conversations are being had, it actually helps them name where they are. And so I can tell you, if there is any level of measurement, put me at the bottom wrong. I am the most uninformed. I am um finding myself learning more about things that I happen to experience daily. That the more I've been thinking about it, as I've heard from you, I'm thinking, wait a dangle minute, is that perimenopause? So brand spanking new, uninformed, at the very bottom of knowledge about perimenopausal, but excited and happy that I could possibly put a name to challenges that um I may be experiencing that I didn't know to call that.

Yeah, I love it. I love it just sort of this chance meeting. Oh, wait a second. Yeah.

Yes.

Um, I uh uh I to the listeners, I had reached out to Veronica after attending her event in Winston-Salem a couple weeks ago, because you're, I guess tell I'll let you tell people why you start what the grackle is and why you started it.

Yes. So I have a business in Winston-Salem called the Healing Pen. Essentially, it's healing through journaling. And at my healing pen sessions, which is like guided journaling, um, the individuals that were present for the class, I would give them a prompt. They would write about the prompt. And when they decided to their level of comfort to share, that as they were telling what they wrote, they were actually telling a story. I saw how impactful it was for the individuals who were also inside of the same session. I could feel a visceral sense of relief when someone heard someone say something that they could relate to. And I knew that I needed or wanted to curate a space, which is how I came up with the idea about the grackle where people could go and tell, you know, real stories in real time. And individuals in the audience would also feel that same feeling inside of a journal session, like, wow, that happened to you, me too. Or wow, I had no idea that ever happened to you, and allow you to hold space for empathy and compassion for people in a in an environment and a culture where everyone seems to feel so divided. I just wanted to create a sense of inclusion and support and community. And it's why I started the grackle. More specifically, the grackle, the actual bird. Um, I told the individuals that were present that this bird um appears to be like a blackbird, but it's actually beautifully iridescent, and there's more to the people that we meet than what meets the eye. And so that's how I started the grapple.

So I wanted you to share it in your own words because that resonated with me, and that's why I reached out because I was like, oh, that's why I started menopause chats was similar but focused on a very you know specific topic, because everyone does have a story. And if if we're lucky enough to live to this age to go through this experience, then I want people to know in everybody's story, people are gonna hear different things. I know someone's gonna listen to this one and say, Oh, wait, I might also be paramedics. I don't know.

I can guarantee that there are 19 more of me's. So yeah, that will be that will definitely be happening. I'm sure about that.

Yeah. So when you started, because I know after our conversation, you started to look things up and we're like, oh wait, yep, that's me, that's me, that's me. What kind of things were resonating with you?

Honestly, not anything about the symptoms at all. The very first thing that resonated with me was um the realization of self-abandonment. Um how how how often are women not really aware of what they are experiencing in their own body because of caring for their family members, loved ones, kind of just making sure that everybody is in their best position, everybody is doing the best outside of you that you almost don't even know that you may not be well. Um I think that I can speak speak specifically for myself that culturally you have to be like bedridden debilitated for someone to think something is wrong with you. Um there is no sensitivity in my culture for you know, some of the symptoms that I ended up looking up. Like if I didn't sleep well, nobody's not gonna nobody's not going to know because I have to still perform at a certain level. If I'm feeling stressed or anxious or overwhelmed in any way, that's not gonna be an indicator of that there is something that's going on or changing with my body hormonally because that's the standard, it seems. It's like daily that ha that's just how it seems to be. If um, you know you are dealing with issues with weight or food choices or whatever the case is, you know, you probably are spending more time in this kind of guilt guilt, um or shame space more than maybe what's happening to you has nothing to do with X, Y, and Z. Maybe this is something um that you can't fight necessarily fight against with normal measures, you know. It's like the very first thing that came to mind for me was just abandonment. Like I had to I had to actually stop and like check in with myself, and so that was my very first experience upon doing the research.

What does abandonment look like to you? Because I imagine it looks different to everybody.

Well, it looks like not knowing something's broken, you know, overperformance. Uh I jokingly had this conversation with a friend. There was a there was someone that had made a commitment and then they broke the commitment. But they broke the commitment due to what I would describe, and I'm not saying that this is the right, you know, but I would describe it as laziness. That's what I would describe it as. Laziness. We were talking to this friend, and we were saying that if we had we had a commitment, we would come leg in a tourniquet, wound leaking, eyeball hanging out, and asking once we get there, how can I help? What do you need me to do? And everybody is looking at you like, hello, you are bleeding everywhere. Like, why didn't you stay at home? And it's like because I said I would. So abandonment to me looks like not knowing when to prioritize my own personal well-being because of my own internal chatter that says it's okay to abandon Veronica, just don't abandon the world. That's what self-abandonment looks like to me.

Thanks for sharing that. It it makes me think about like when in my coaching work with people, particularly women uh uh of a certain age, about setting boundaries and having to set boundaries for the first time, like not realizing like, oh, I can say no, or I can say I cannot commit to something, or I can change my mind.

That feels like someone is ripping my flesh off of my body to be candy, that's how how much I have never exercised it, and and when I do, you know, 40 years old, and you are, you know, now you're setting a boundary, right? Now you are trying out this thing that that part, and honestly, that's the part that feels performative. It feels performative to have the boundary, it feels performative because in my brain and in my mind I can do it. Yeah, but I don't that's the part that's self-abandon it, is self-abandonment is because I don't even know it's abandoning me. Right. Your ability to do it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best thing to do, just because you can do it. Yeah, so I'm trying to sort that out. You know, I really can't say I'm trying to sort it out because if it results in that I will be missing that I could be possibly perimenopausal and kind of like sort of fighting against myself, that's a problem. Yeah, that's a problem.

Yeah, and and we talked about this earlier, the idea that like I didn't know I was in perimenopause until way later, and it was sort of in hindsight, right? And hearing you talk about the self-abandonment is is probably what was happening with me as well, right? Like I was like, well, I'm like this is yeah, there's stuff going on, but whatever, I got other things to do. I'm just gonna keep on going and you know, and yeah, I'll see this doctor, it's not helping. Uh oh, well, I guess there's nothing I can do, and just you know, kind of move on um and just on with my day. And, you know, and my sleep's never been great. So like I need sleep, and but it's never been like I've never been someone who slept through the night easily. I don't stay up, you know, whereas I know some people it's like I'm up and now I'm up, but I've always sort of tossed and turned and you know, wake up multiple times. So, like to me, that wasn't any different. So I was like, all right, this is this is just how it is, but yeah, and and it that's what also got me curious, too, about like, does your mindset and how you think about perimenopause and menopause impact your experience? Because if you aren't thinking, I I have this sort of philosophy of like, if I think something's wrong, I'm gonna be looking for the things that are wrong.

And then now it is inflamed versus if I think something is wrong, then I can care for myself better.

Yeah.

So I think that's the part for me that in my work, especially like with the healing pen, is like collecting the data, getting the new information, but not to necessarily so that I can be mean to myself and or or even um you know, rework this overproduction. It's just saying I recognize that there's something that's here that I need to give some real care and attention to. And how can I learn to be more gentle with myself, more kind with myself, more present for myself? And in doing so, because a woman like me who cares so much about other people, I'm actually teaching that too. Yeah, I'm teaching that. I mean, I'm a mother, I have a daughter, I have sons, but I'm saying I have a daughter, I have two grandchildren. There are going to be times where they need to see that demonstrated. If what I have witnessed and what I've experienced is women who go places while they're on fire. I've witnessed that. So I need to rewrite this narrative. A water best practices for caring for yourself when you get new information. You know, it's not time to get in the ring with yourself and beat yourself up. It's like, how can I be a better steward of self? And honestly, this is what you are waking me up to as a result of this conversation. These feelings of sometimes mood changes and instability feel so bigger and larger than life. But I'm like, now I'm thinking, yeah, because they're knocking at the door saying, Hey, see me, yeah, I'm here, I need some attention, I need some care. And so that's what I hope that ultimately this that can be modeled, is that we are both agreeing to maybe didn't know this was going on. But if in the event that someone in the early stages of maybe learning or finding out that that's what they are experiencing, that they'll become better stewards of themselves, hopefully.

And just are curious, right, about themselves, what's going on with their body, how that might be different. You know, I think when we're younger, you know, we we kind of go through this experience as teenagers as well, as puberty. One, we don't have the same mental capacity as we do as an adult, and we really don't know what we're doing. That, you know, even though health class teaches you, oh, your body's changing and you're going to experience these things. It's still a very different experience now as an adult going through similar hormonal changes, maybe just in an opposite way to puberty. But having this, I guess, mental capacity to say, wait a second, what is this that you didn't have when you were younger? But also not knowing, because people don't talk about it enough. Like you are taught about puberty.

Yes, so no one's teaching you about perimenopause.

Right. And so, I mean, I see it a lot because that's only heard of menopause in my growing up.

I've heard of menopause. Yep. So I and and and even then it only had one symptom, and it was hot flashes. Yep, it had no more other symptoms in my hearing about it growing up. So you know I didn't hear about perimenopause. That was that was all I heard.

Yeah, and what's crazy is like menopause really honestly is a day. It's like this is the marker of 12 months without a period. Yes, that is it. Everything else is perimenopause, everything else is postmenopause. Yeah, and postmenopause can last for a while, like the the perimenopausal symptoms that lead up to your one day can then continue on for sometimes a decade afterwards and until things sort of normalize again. And that's what's so fascinating to me is that similarly, like only for hot flashes and mood swings. Was those were the two things, you know, that I heard.

You have one more symptom than me. Um got the second one.

And then the hot flashes don't even affect everybody. So I mean, people think that's you know, I think that's sort of the stereotype of of you know, hot flashes, I mean, of menopause, but not everyone experiences them. And I was experiencing them. That's what made me think I was in perimenopause is I started to experience them at night. So night sweats and and hot flashes are the same thing, it's just depends on the time of day. Um and that's really what started me to go, huh? I wonder. And then surprise.

So now you're sitting and you're waiting on your hot flashes. Meanwhile, you're missing the seven other things that could be going on because the only thing you're looking for is hot flashes if you're uninformed, you know.

Right. Well, even then, like going to the doctor, because I was uninformed, you know, and I had gone to the doctor, like, hey, listen, I'm having, you know, uh pain, you know, pain in in my vaginal area, particularly during intercourse. Oh, okay, well, we'll send you over to this place.

Slow down. And then hold on, yeah.

Yeah. And then they're like, nope, gotta go to this thing. Then it's like, oh, you know, well, now I'm experiencing something that feels like eczema down there. Oh, well, this lady, I she was the last time I saw her, she's like, You you sound like you have herpes. And I was like, I think I would know.

And I remember texting, I remember texting my husband saying, Um, so they're having me take a test for herpes. If I have herpes, you have some explaining to do.

I did not have herpes.

Aaron Nepal affects the whole family.

So he's at work dress, yeah, winning. And so, you know, it's like it was negative, as I thought. Because of course, like when things get um when things change down there, like it's not always uh present when you go to a doctor. So they're going by what I'm explaining.

What you told them had happened. Yeah.

Yeah. And so it's like, okay, so you have that. And you know, but again, none of these things, like nobody, you know, nobody else told me to about the like random hair. Yes. I'm always like, I have this one. I just actually jokingly, I saw it the other day and I took it out. Nobody else was like, Are you turning into a witch? I was like, probably.

I'm like, I have no idea. I was like, just one, just this one chin hair.

I got the one chin hair. That's what I'm saying. I don't know about any of this.

I have the one chin hair. So it's it's just interesting to me. It's like all these things that, and and you know, if you depending on how open of a person you are talking with other women about these things, because certainly, I mean, I'm very comfortable talking about these things, but I also get that other people are like, oh, I would never tell anybody about my vagina. And it's like, I get that. And, you know, I feel like let me tell you just for the, you know, not because people need to hear about it, about mine, but like people need to know these are things to look out for. Like, you just don't know. There's other, you know, maybe had I known a decade ago, I would have had a different conversation with my provider. Providers aren't informed either. And we think they are, because we sort of hold them up with like, oh, you went to school, you're a doctor, you're a professional, like you should know these things. They don't.

Right, right. So especially if they haven't ever experienced that. Right. Because some things you can't put in a book, you know, you just have to have had lived experience for you to be able to know what things look like and how they show up. And it may not show up with the masses, but I mean to say that one of the things that I I tell a lot, I'll use this example for people who are raising children, and I say, When I was a mother to a newborn, right? When their child became a toddler, I was an expert in newborns. And then when my toddler became, you know, adolescent or whatever, I was a toddler, I was an expert in newborns, and I was an expert in toddlers, and then I had teenagers, and then I was an expert in all the things below that. And then I got up here to raising adult children, and I don't know anything. I'm not an expert in nothing anymore, but I'm saying that to say that all of these years of parenting, all of it never prepared me for the realities of what it would be like to stand alongside adult children. And so some of how you learn to be the best of things is you have to have had the experience on it. It's not in a it's not in a book. No one can really give it to you. You have to have lived it.

Well, I think what's great about having these conversations now, too, particularly with women who have whether it's teenagers or adult daughters, is being able to tell them, hey, yeah, there's what you expect, because that didn't happen for us.

Yes. And so I don't even know if today, now that I think about it, I don't even know if my mother has ever told me, and my mother's 75. I don't know if my mother has ever talked to me about her menopause journey. Like if she has experienced even any menopause. I don't, I cannot recall as we're talking ever having a conversation with her about any changes in her body.

So I never did either. And I'm now my my mom's 78, but had similar, you know, conversation with her now as an adult to say, hey, like what do you remember of your menopause journey? I don't know. I don't remember anything. The nails gone. You know, yeah, yeah. And uh, you know, I think her her response is something along the lines of like, I don't know, I was always a bitch or something. Like something, you know, humorous. But yeah, she just and I was like, Yeah, I don't, you know, I'm like, I don't recall her having hot flashes. I don't recall her complaining about anything. I just, it's just sort of like this is what it was. And I know she. even said like her my my grandmother's long since passed but like her mom she's like she never talked about it either you know because I think similar the self-abandonment that we started with it's like women you know particularly I think of a certain you know my my uh grandmother was you know firstborn in the US you know like of immigrants and like this is just we work hard we keep our mouth shuts we you know we do what we need to do and we stay out of trouble.

Yes. So therefore there will be no one sharing what I'm experiencing because what you're gonna do about it anyway. Right. You know it's like this this is leaning into complaining and no one can fix it kind of thing. So we're not sharing.

Whereas I feel like now there's a shift a little bit of like oh there are things you can do. And so it's like what you know or at least be seen or make a choice of if you want to continue doing what you're doing or here are some other options for you to you know because particularly when our moms would have gone through it you know if they're similar in age the study that came out that caused everybody to no longer want to be on hormones at all was very prominent. And so um that's shifting a lot but there's other natural things that people can use and do as well. But um to me that's again a very personal journey right like you choose what you want to do for your body and yourself. Yeah. You had mentioned about journaling as a as a tool.

Yes how do you see journaling helping anyone really I think that journaling helps anyone um if we weren't going to just be specific just for what we're the conversation that we're having is to identify what you're actually feeling I can't tell you how many times people have described these kind of elementary emotions as how they were feeling so let's say I say to you Aaron you know how you feeling today and you're like I'm mad and so we know the core emotions mad um sad happy you know but sometimes people say mad but they really are embarrassed or sometimes people say they're sad but they really are exhausted and so journaling helps to identify how people are actually feeling and showing up and sometimes or at least my experience is the more that you journal and the more that you write you you unlock those real feelings. I have started journaling I can't tell you how many times where I'm like writing you know this rage filled writing and I'm just getting all these emotions out and by the time I'm done the like the beginning words are like fury anger rage and then at some point when I kind of like lean up against disappointment because that's what I really feel I get so exhausted from how high emotionally I was in this like area of rage and anger that I just stopped writing. I have like literal journal entries that have unfinished there it never a sentence never ended with a period it was just I needed to get that out and so I find that the benefit of journaling is that people are literally packed with emotions and feelings and thoughts and they are housing them every single day. It has nowhere that it can go and if in the event that you think you are such a great stuffer oh I have stuffed these emotions they'll never come back out I want you to know that is a lie from the pit of hell that they will show up and even if they don't exit your body like a lash out or whatever the case is or depression or anything like that I think that they pull up and park and they find spaces that like hang out in your body and they can show up as hypertension or diabetes or all these other things because there's so many unprocessed emotions that are just kind of like hanging out and you know I should say this very carefully I feel like what I have any wood this might not even be real wood but um I have been through a lot of things in my life a lot of things I'm currently not the weight that I would want to be um probably not the weight that a provider would ask me to be based off of these you know kind of man-made metrics but I will say every single time that I go to the doctor and their lab work to be done I've never had abnormal labs. And again I don't want to say that in a way of bragging or anything like that but I mean to say I don't think that what I'm saying or suggesting that people can do is just some kind of made up theory. I recognize how much benefit it is to be a person who I do both I can journal and then I also don't have fear in sharing that transparency that you spoke of when you talked about having conversations with someone about what's going on with their vagina I mean I'm the person who slams her leg up and is like hey look friend what is this you know I'm that I'm literally that open I have no qualms about like transparency and talking and sharing and getting things out and you know leaving no stone unturned no pages unturned I'm just so and I know a lot of people who don't find comfort in that yeah so if you're not going to talk to a therapist if you're not gonna talk to your friends if you're not gonna talk to your spouse then talk to your journal and to get things out and to share because otherwise everything you're feeling is literally inside of your body well guess what your body has organs and your body has veins and your body has muscles it doesn't have space for big emotions in fact in my opinion the emotions are bigger in your body by the time you get them out on paper they actually decrease in size it only feels that big because we're trying to store it inside of these tiny bodies and so I think that that is the beautiful benefit of journaling and I could imagine connecting it to perimenopause or just understanding you know these body changes is having opportunities pauses and breaks where you can just do self-check-ins today I noticed that this was different than my normal feeling what I typically feel I was at the grocery store and this is what happened when the lady pulled and ran and jumped in front whatever it is but it's like you can process you can move through was it as big as I thought it was is this particular emotion something that's typical of me do I feel this often do I feel this frequently and then I think also how you describe going to the doctor and you talk to them about an emotion but the I mean about something that's going with your body but it's not necessarily present that's the same as explaining what happened if I have a a feeling on Monday and then I go to the doctor on Friday I don't lost the words for what I experienced on Monday. But if I'm journaling about these symptoms and these things in real time I literally can read to my provider line by line this is what I experienced on Monday journaling is not just long paragraphs sometimes journaling is lists sometimes journaling is spurts of words that you feel in real time it's like waking up from a dream and if you don't write down your dream right away by 2 p.m you have completely forgotten.

I don't know when 2 p.m 20 minutes after I wake up it's gone.

And so you journaled about it and then you're able to recall interestingly enough not only are you interesting to recall but you can remember very vivid details. It's like the the dream comes back to life I think that about journaling too not so much so to ruminate over something constantly but it's saying like I want to honor that I'm experiencing this and I make this emotion this feeling this whatever have like space so I can address it acknowledging it and find out what do I do with it like do I need to do more with this or did I just need to give it some attention for right now and I can lay this to rest but I need to know it even exists in order for me to figure out what my next steps are and so I think that journaling is absolutely instrumental in helping people do that.

I started this practice a couple years ago because I was in a group and they're like oh celebrate your wins right like tell and and the wins can be small they don't have to be it's like it could be like I woke up today. It doesn't have to be like I won an award somewhere right um but keeping track of them so then you know it's for me it's been really helpful because I forget I forget all the small little things that happen and I can go back and be like oh yeah I had a pretty good year.

Yes you have to when you're able to go back and because that's another you know benefit of journaling it also can have you measure success in the sense of what was ailing me you know January the 28th am I still experiencing that August the 14th right sometimes you don't even know how you have overcome certain situations because um when we're moving on to the next thing you don't get to kind of count that oh that did get resolved or I'm no longer thinking that way anymore that has changed or something is different for me. And I think that what little I know about perimenopause because I know nothing. So I want to be very clear. I think that is going to be very helpful for the rumination of thoughts yeah that may come as a result of new data because trust me having new information is not always great either because now it has you hypervigilant it's like you know you're kind of looking to the left and looking to the right and you're like is that me do I have that kind of thing and um is this payment yes and so journaling is helping me to see am I experiencing this thing post an experience yeah or was this sudden onset right or yeah is it's a pattern or is this a one-off it's a one-off yeah like you journal about that and you can make some proper assessments to things too so yes I absolutely agree anything else you'd want to share with someone listening today I don't want to assume that the only people that would listen to this conversation are women I think that I hope that um you know there are men that would take great interest in finding out ways that they can support their loved ones and so although I don't want to assume that only women would listen I can say that what I need to say is to women I really want women to unlearn the value and the identity that has can't come as a result of overproduction and that our worth is tied in our work and as I'm saying this to women I will probably need to listen to this because I need to say this to myself that if you've had a headache for a week and you didn't even notice that's a problem and if you have felt emotionally there's been some shifts and some changes and you aren't able to identify fluctuations and abnormalities because you're just so busy that's a problem I would highly encourage women whether their medium is journaling or some other way to just slow down and check in with their sales if you are a good mother if you are a good spouse if you are a good employee if you're a good business owner if you're a great friend but you aren't a great steward of self I would actually argue that there is no real way to be the best of all of those other things to other people if it's at the expense of continuing to do harmful things to you. So I want women to just check in just slow down evaluate what they're thinking what they're feeling how they're showing up today and just make space for yourself regularly and then make whatever adjustments that are necessary post whatever information you find out. I just think it's high time for women to move out of being great caregivers of everybody else and negligent of self and that includes me. Well thank you I also needed to hear that so thank you thank you for being here thank you for sharing thank you for the work that you do thank you thank you for having me and thank you for hearing a story and thinking you should come talk to us I really appreciate it.

Thank you of course well thank you for listening and joining us today um and I'd be honored if you subscribed and shared minute pause chats with others um if you're interested in being a guest you can also reach out to me uh but until next time we will see you later thank you so much